Gender Fluidity in Avaria, and Other Sex- and Gender-Based Themes

Re: VNPC opinion, I definitely agree it's like... it can be bad to attribute opinion to it because you'll see people using it as an ego point to big up their character sometimes, which is kind of naff. But I feel like having reactions in line with the brief/culture as per the wiki seems like a reasonable way to go about it. Like as a niche example, if I were playing a Razmani and started talking to a non-Razmani in Ruzur, while standing in the Razmani Enclave in Omrazir, I think it's entirely reasonable to spoof getting weird looks from the locals about it- because it's explicitly not something that's really done.

Yeah, I can totally see the reluctance to like... emote VNPCs, sometimes. It definitely would be weird form to go "EMIT Everyone sitting around in the tavern stands up and claps for /me's comeback." in the middle of an argument with another PC, or "EMIT There are cheers and whoops from the usual patrons as /me swaggers into the fighting pit!" or something like that. Super weird. 

But on the other hand, I'd like to trust players to kind of understand what makes sense and feel free to emit things that make sense, too. I'm not sure how to document this or make a rule about it, though. And ultimately, what we might end up doing is just adding more and more coded things, like reputations among vNPCs and local crowd reactions and stuff like that to mechanically enforce theme. This sort of thing would need a lot of refinement and polishing. Already there are some things about NPC affection metrics that are difficult to handle. Example: Hektor's affection log for Inaya is full of decreasing points for vulgar language. Like... why does he care, he's a sailor! If anything he should love her more! But I neglected to set that aspect of his personality, so it's something I would need to go in and fiddle with in his settings to fix it. Like, you see NPCs staring when 'loudness ensues' as if that's something bad.. in some cases where it makes total sense for loudness to ensue... so like, yeah. Tangent. Just mechanics need polishing, players writing might be abused, but at least a player probably isn't going to emit getting a dirty look for screaming bloody murder when a mistsmonster is trying to rip off their head.

I have lots of thoughts about everyone's thoughts about emitting, etc but that almost seems like it could use its own thread. On the actual subject of gender variance though: 

What's the deal with that gender appearance metric we were asked to choose in chargen? Do NPCs react to this? Could we possibly 1) see this in our score 2) see other people's 3) change this when appropriate? 
 

I love the idea of this little number because it lends a LOT of context that may be lost in the translation of descriptions and emoting, to say nothing if the fact that my lack of familiarity with Avarian norms presents me with an OOC challenge in using description to indicate how gender variant my character's appearance is intended to be. 
 

Gender norms are so subjective that it's conceivable I could be going for Frank-N-Furter energy and someone else with very different reference points is picturing Jack Sparrow, and then their understanding of and reaction to my character is really out of sync with my goals. I feel like that one little number would completely recast the look of that performance and even if they don't understand how I'm going about it, they at least now know what I'm going for. 
 

Vulgar language? SLANDER! LIES! Inaya would never, what are you even talking about, this is clearly fake news.

(I am actually howling, that's so funny lolololol)

</tangent also>

I think it really is difficult to try and set up coded systems for something like that, yeah - because either you are constantly running up against the limitations of the code, or you're coding for literal years to create the perfect simulationist game. But it is just so FUZZY to tell people, "use vNPCs responsibly." I think the really difficult thing about it is that if someone DOES ever decide to abuse it, there's no recourse. If I emote that everyone on the docks of St. Loomis is cheering for my character as she beats someone up, what, exactly, can the other party really do about that? They could... try and emote that "well actually no, that is not happening" but gosh that's super awkward now - because the format of RP is essentially improv, the established norm for us is to take what someone gives us at face value and go "Yes, and..." so it's counter to everything we've ever done to say "No, actually."

Not that I think such egregious examples are really a risk with the lovely group of players we've got, mind you. But edge cases are even worse, because you're just not quite sure whether it counts as being inappropriate, and you usually both want to give the benefit of doubt and also don't really want to raise OOC conflict if you don't have to.

My general rule of thumb is I'm happy to use vNPCs to react negatively to my character/their actions, but you'll basically never catch me doing it for positive reactions or support, just because that smacks of powergaming to me personally, unless there's just absolutely no possible world in which any other reaction could exist, it's guaranteed.

Yeah, I think probably a less fuzzy statement would be that "You can use VNPCs for negative reactions to your character, but not positive ones". 

Regarding the gender variance metric, yeah -- it might be a good idea to add that to some kind of maybe 'assess' on a character. 

Right now, the mechanical impact of it is to determine the difficulty of disguising as the opposite gender. For example, a very stereotypically feminine woman might wear a man's shirt but still very obviously be female, while a less stereotypically feminine woman could wear a man's shirt and just pass for a man by that alone. In this case, the woman with a gendered-appearance number of 10 is wearing a shirt with a genderedness of 2, and still has '8' in terms of appearing feminine. And the woman with a gendered-appearance of 1 is wearing the same shirt (2), and has a '1' in terms of appearing masculine. The number isn't necessarily a measure of attraction because either of those people could look very attractive in their own ways; it's just an indicator of how gendered someone's appearance might be. 

The metric answer is what inspired me in chargen. I would find assess neat for how it may apply to vnpcs and how they perceive characters. Things ended up confusing in planned and unplanned ways with appearance/disguise, so I appreciate many rolling with it alongside me.

(Cackling at the swearing rep)

I appreciate you a lot for how you've put up with a lot of the alpha bugs regarding gendered disguises and other such things... I know it's been especially difficult playing your character with all this, and if you ever need help with anything, feel free to let us know.

I'd also be interested in hearing from the PCs who currently now are playing supposedly "abnormal" characters (anyone who goes against established setting norms) ... I'd like to know:
 

• Are you as a player comfortable with the fact that the setting discriminates against your character? (In what ways are you comfortable and what ways are you uncomfortable? Because there might be a lot of intersectionality involved here.)
• Do you enjoy that conflict as something to tell stories about, or would you prefer it didn't exist in fantasyland?
• Are you confident that if someone did seem to be showing real-world bigotry, and not roleplaying this as a flaw, we would be receptive to a report about it?

Our goal in establishing the setting is to make a very deep world with many different sources of narrative conflicts, where yes -- uncomfortable bigotries and unpleasantness do exist, especially according to the historical location -- but it is meant to be something that you can roleplay conflict about. We have purposeful mechanics to support these stories, such as gendered disguises and the availability of an intersex option. Our intentions in making this post were twofold: to make sure that nobody felt gaslit about their thematic reactions (as has happened in the past regarding misogynistic themes) and to make sure that we weren't deceiving anyone into generating a character that would be uncomfortable for them to play. We always want to be very up-front about any potentially triggering material.

I'm asking these questions genuinely to try to understand how our players feel on this topic, as a whole. So please don't feel as if there are any wrong answers, or as if you are going to be attacked for disagreeing with the idea of having such conflicts in a game world.

And I also want to stress on the fact that any sort of bigotry in the game world is not something that we want to encourage in the real world. I hope that players do not feel actively discriminated against in real life here.

I love in character conflict and but I personally feel that it would be better to ditch Avaria's persecution of gender/sex/race and focus on less real life qualities. You could still have religious conflicts, and potentially negative opinions on magic, politics and maybe lifestyle choices such as clothing, drugs, money. I'm sure there are plenty of other things too that have less possibility to offend, upset or exclude people OOC, and won't force them to deal with conflict they may already have to deal with in real life.

I don't enjoy what I think of as 'generic fantasy' because it's always the same old thing; shitty roles for women and few female NPCs of importance, concepts such as dark-skinned races being evil or antagonists, OTT macho attitudes and a lot of might makes right. I was excited by Avaria being set in a non euro-centric environment but some of the other game design choices, namely over gender and sex have been a bit surprising, especially when NPCs like Tekra and then the NPC/vNPC crew's faith in Inaya as captain were such big parts of the early story and seem, to me, at odds with that. Honestly, it's a little disappointing and I think there are far more imaginative, inventive and less restrictive ways to do things. Avaria is so rich and detailed, I'm positive you'd be able to find things to have other meaningful conflict over.

If you really feel that these themes are intrinsic to the game, perhaps switch it around a bit. Maybe the Caliphate or parts of the Caliphate could be a leading force in acceptance and inclusivity in some of these issues? Then you'd still get to have stories that deal with these difficult themes, but in a more sensitive way of having the characters and their nation champion those causes.

I very much trust you as a storyteller able to handle these topics which is why I haven't said anything sooner. Other people who don't know you may well not feel the same so I do worry about the appeal of some of these policies.

Just because I feel like this is the main point I'm trying to make, I'm going to say it again to finish: I don't feel as if this policy and a few of the other game design choices reflect what I've experienced in game. I suppose the question for me is really is how attached you are to those choices, and why?

I'm neither hot nor cold on the gender, sexuality, etc stuff myself, it's generally a lot gentler than some other settings I've been in. But I don't really think the game would be harmed from just cutting it out, and I 100% think that more people would be interested in playing (judging from comments I've heard from a number of friends now). I definitely think there's some interesting stories that can be told around this kind of thing (and I like a chance to be involved with them) but a lot of people aren't, or are immediately going to want to not play. Shit, I nearly decided to not bother with SoA after reading through the wiki because I was like "oh, well I can't play a woman as a warrior", then just did it anyway which may or may not be on-theme for the game.

"Abnormalities" fall into two distinct categories for me: those I welcome conflict around and those I decidedly do not. Gender and sexuality squarely land in my 'not fun' territory from a conflict perspective, and more broadly, I hate it thematically. Honestly, if this thread existed prior to me joining SoA, I wouldn't have touched it with a 10-foot pole. Such close ties to real-life bigotries that continue today are not appealing to me, especially with no apparent promise of intriguing development with a significant counterculture movement to push for inclusion. Made-up religions, magic, and lifestyle choices (drug use, professions, etc.) rank among the things I find enjoyable to follow from a 'discrimination' perspective. In my opinion, conflict stemming from these elements can propel a storyline forward in an exciting way, beyond simply grappling with societal norms in secrecy or gradually shifting perceptions about LGBTQ+ individuals one person at a time. 

I presently don't really have any skin in the game regarding my character, but having to come up with reasons for her not to be homophobic did give me some ick. I also do not trust that this will not be a beacon for those wishing to RP out their real-life bigotries behind a veil of thematic accuracy (and no, I am not confident about the reporting of those actions if they did occur). Also, for non-binary individuals—suggesting that the notion of being genderqueer is too modern? (is that the right word?) for the setting strikes me as inaccurate. Inspiration could be drawn from indigenous cultures of the Americas or the historically recognized third gender in South Asia—or even something totally new! If we can have magic, surely we can accommodate non-binary people. 

I give all these opinions with lots of love for Pilgrim, Mistsparrow, and SoA as a whole. <3 Y'all have been very lovely, and I would not think that it is meant to be discrimination OOCly (though if I looked at this as an outsider, I am not sure that I wouldn't draw that conclusion). Super open to hearing more about why these things have been chosen to be incorporated into the world. It... just seems more prohibitive than it is interesting for story development, in my opinion. 

Also, hello! I'm officially back after RL got a lil crazy to give a long-winded opinion piece in the forums lmao